Yugank Goyal — Implementing the National Education Policy (NEP)
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<h3 class="hd hd-2">Implementing the NEP </h3>
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Implementing the NEP
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Video transcript
- Start of transcript. Skip to the end.
- hello and welcome to evc learning
- interviews today with us we have
- professor dr yugang goyal yugang is a
- faculty at flame university uganda has
- been involved in setting up of various
- higher education institutions he is
- involved in public policy regulations
- and various
- law and development programs
- today ugand is with us and he'll be
- talking about implementation challenges
- and suggestions on national education
- policy 2020. so ugand welcome to the
- interview well thank you so much fatim
- it's a pleasure to be here
- but you know to the audience i must say
- the outset that these are really just
- initial thoughts um in my engagement
- with higher education institutions uh so
- this is just a policy yet there is no
- law so to speak so nothing that i will
- mention must be construed as a legal
- advice right these are some of the
- suggestions and i think this is an
- ongoing conversation
- these ideas will evolve
- these ideas will evolve even for me
- but but i think it's important that we
- at least set out some preliminary ideas
- on the table but you know individual
- institutions must do their own due
- diligence before following the ideas
- that we discuss in the in the in the
- panel but thanks a lot for inviting me
- so yugang there is a lot of anxiety
- amongst higher education institutions
- they really don't know what need to be
- implemented and how that needs to be
- implemented do you think this anxiety is
- justified
- well um yes and no um i think um
- i think um
- in one word or in one phrase if i have
- to you know surmise what nap really asks
- us to do is that we it wants us to take
- learning seriously um so in educational
- institutions that have never taken
- learning seriously of course they will
- be anxious because now they have to
- but but on the other hand there are many
- universities and colleges and other
- higher education institutions that have
- been tr that have been doing or making
- significantly sincere efforts uh in in
- achieving learning outcomes uh and also
- research outcomes uh they don't
- necessarily need to be anxious um i
- think this anxiety is largely a result
- of
- partly the fact that institutions have
- not been engaged in learning seriously
- but also partly because there's a lot of
- discussion
- on nap's overall
- you know goals
- but there is very little discourse on
- what can institutions do
- to implement nep and so lack of that
- discourse and a history of using higher
- education institutions as a means to do
- many things except learning
- often probably leads to this so i think
- learning is central here so
- that's right
- but let us take a step back from
- teaching learning as a process but
- imagine if i am a registrar or a
- compliance officer or a vice chancellor
- of a university what does it mean to me
- how do i change things what all needs uh
- to be implemented in practice right no i
- mean i think this is great i mean and
- this is really the crux of the problem
- and let's try to unpack this
- uh exactly this question through through
- this conversation
- you see as a as a university
- administrator in most cases not all
- the university administrators are in
- general inclined to
- follow certain laws or instructions that
- are given to them by the government
- right so this is what you have to do
- this is what you can't do and so on and
- so forth nap doesn't tell you this it
- tells you what you should aspire for
- what you should be achieving and so it's
- an outcome driven document in some ways
- and therefore many of these university
- administrators are at a loss to figure
- out what are the steps we take in order
- to achieve this or what are the steps
- that are expected in the nep so let's
- try to unbundle many of these things
- because in my personally in my view
- universities
- perhaps definitely the good ones they
- don't need to be anxious about it
- they're already doing many things that
- are written in the nep
- i think the one of the reasons for nep
- to exist is to articulate in a very very
- specific manner this is what we want our
- universities to be like rather than
- having this vague idea that earlier
- existed so this is like you know
- bringing a lot of
- crystallizing some of these ideas
- together um and i'm happy to take some
- of these specific points in terms of
- what has to be done
- if i'm the registrar of a university
- what should i be doing here to in order
- to achieve it yeah so essentially are
- you saying that the structure of
- academic governance need to change and
- uh
- more learning should be i mean not not
- only so academic governance is only one
- part of nep and i think for the benefit
- of our viewers we should mention that
- this is a conversation only on
- higher education
- of nep and not school education because
- that's an area that i work on but uh
- governance is only one part of it
- definitely an important part but um
- but there are many other aspects
- learning being one of them um then there
- are areas related to
- multi-disciplinarity areas related to
- holistic education um areas related to
- credit structures flexibilities um and
- so on and so forth and let's uh sort of
- pick them over time oh you know one by
- one right so let's uh jump onto the
- specifics and come to the text so one of
- the things that you already mentioned is
- uh multi-disciplinarity can you explain
- uh to our viewers that
- what it is and how it needs to be
- implemented yeah so uh the first
- question is an easy one even though
- often misunderstood so let me tell you
- um let me try to sort of give a picture
- of what multidisciplinarity is so you
- know um scholars and professionals often
- use the word multidisciplinarity
- interdisciplinarity and trans
- disciplinarity
- often interchangeably
- but they should not be
- in general
- you know a
- multidisciplinary education means that
- somebody who's studying physics is also
- studying painting so this is so these
- are two separate subjects but the
- student is exposed to learning of two
- different disciplines in the same
- university right um even though i'm
- doing a degree in economics i'm also
- studying history right so that is
- multidisciplinarity but let's say if i
- have to do a course on let's say
- legal history or i have to do a course
- on law and economics or area studies
- right south asian studies
- in here i am bringing concepts from both
- law and economics
- sometimes even from sociology history
- this is interdisciplinarity right so
- you're using concepts of two different
- disciplines to create a new discipline
- trans disciplinarity which is of course
- not mentioned in nep and i don't think
- we should go there but for
- for the sake of it i should also mention
- transdisciplinarity is another level
- where
- two disciplines
- sort of get fused to each other you know
- so think about for instance
- bioinformatics right
- bioengineering
- or sustainability like right so you
- cannot have
- i mean both disciplines are equally
- important to understand something else
- which is the third one right um you need
- biology and technology to understand
- bioinformatics which is a third so this
- is transdisciplinary which is kind of
- the way of the future but but so in
- multi so in
- the context of nep multi-disciplinarity
- is that your higher education
- institution cannot be providing just one
- particular type of pedagogical
- intervention
- it cannot be giving degrees it cannot be
- given delivering classes in one
- discipline alone you have to give
- classes in several disciplines and of
- course nap has given many examples which
- brings me to the second point which is
- how do you make it how do you make uh
- you know i don't think it's very
- difficult to think about it now that
- i've explained it right
- so you have an engineering college well
- you should have courses on history
- on
- painting on sculpture
- in addition on law and i think that's
- extremely important in addition to
- having courses in engineering um so
- there has to be and it cannot all it
- cannot really replace engineering
- courses but students who are studying
- engineering cannot not study other
- disciplines too so over time the
- expectation is until 2030 that colleges
- or universities that are offering
- programs in specific disciplines must
- also offer programs in our subjects and
- courses in many other disciplines that
- makes them interdisciplinary sorry
- multidisciplinary right so ims
- um they are providing management
- education iits are only providing
- technical education but now many iid's
- have begun offering social science
- courses so that is a step towards
- multidisciplinarity so think of a
- registrar or a vice chancellor that you
- were earlier proposing
- who is a vice chancellor of allah
- university
- well now you will have to teach a little
- bit of physics
- you will have to teach a little bit of
- mathematics you will also have to teach
- a little bit of i don't know sculpting
- perhaps and this allows many other
- disciplines to flourish so it's not that
- law is being replaced but there are many
- other disciplines and these disciplines
- allow the university's space to become
- multidisciplinary how do you go about it
- let's start and this is something in
- which nip is also very explicit let us
- start with those subjects which are
- closest to your central subject so if
- you if you have an engineering college
- the way to move towards a
- multi-disciplinary engineering college
- is to start a course in
- history of nuclear physics in india
- history of engineering colleges
- engineering in india
- then maybe you move to science and
- technology studies
- you move to science and society
- you move to
- perhaps
- perhaps economics
- economics of
- various
- science programs economics of space
- research programs in india for example
- right then you move towards economics
- itself then from there you can move to
- economics of
- town planning so these are connected to
- engineering you move to architecture
- right right um and then you move to
- something very different let's say
- painting or
- philosophy philosophy of science is
- another subject right sociology of
- science right so let's move to other
- disciplines other courses which are
- closely related to your main one start
- opening courses in that not not uh
- degrees but courses so there are courses
- on philosophy of science available in
- engineering college and this becomes
- slowly becomes a department then it
- becomes a school and it becomes a
- multi-disciplinary university by 2030.
- right point taken ugand but let us see
- the present higher educational
- institutes in india so there are
- affiliated colleges uh there are
- universities or as you say some iit's
- offering now
- social science courses etc right so
- within the present uh
- hierarchy or the system of higher
- education and if all of the colleges are
- expected to go multidisciplinary how
- will that come into place
- um
- so let me uh let me pour some of my
- thoughts on this okay and i've thought
- about it considerably
- so
- let's let's categorize institutions in
- india right so
- so you make two big categories like
- public institutions and private higher
- education institutions
- within private
- you have
- uh like you mentioned right autonomous
- colleges affiliated colleges um and then
- there are of course private universities
- um there are private institutions
- nep
- proposes that there will be nothing
- called affiliating college in future
- which means any college which is
- affiliated to a university will will
- cease to exist you cannot have
- affiliations done
- which in practice means that these
- colleges
- will have to merge with a large
- university now this might suddenly occur
- to many institutions as a big
- sort of existential threat right but
- that is not what's going on what's
- really going on is so if you look at
- let's say the american model
- um so american universities think about
- i don't know howard university right it
- has harvard law school harvard business
- school harvard schools of art and
- science harvard school of art and
- sciences and so on and so forth so you
- have these several schools that are part
- of a university the degree comes from
- the university these schools are
- smaller brackets or let's say you know
- smaller categories under a larger
- category of a university this is what
- nep is proposing so you cannot have
- small universities anymore or small
- colleges you have to have large
- multi-disciplinary university and the
- number is around 3000. so you know if
- your number is smaller than 3000 ho the
- hope is that colleges sorry universities
- will become larger
- um and reap the benefits and gains from
- collective wisdom of so many people and
- different kinds of disciplines and also
- economies of scale right there i just
- want to interject and ask about that
- what is exactly the road map of it so
- you said about the american model where
- you have schools and we have a model
- that a particular faculty has
- departments departments correct right
- correct so what is the road forward for
- present department into becoming schools
- and how the administrative structure
- would change and that's where i think
- most of the anxiety among you're right
- so i think you're right absolutely right
- i think so here's how i see it so first
- of all there is no
- structured road map that comes from some
- governmental department that has to be
- followed it has to go we have to
- co-evolve this and here's one way to do
- it
- so
- you know university cons you know
- structures of university can be
- department specific which is like you
- mentioned or they can be school specific
- um you when you have departments then
- the faculty members from these
- departments often take the subjects of
- the degree program so these departments
- loan their faculty members so to speak
- in a school you have your own faculty
- members so an economist in a law school
- is teaching economics in a law school i
- mean of course there are you know
- there's considerable intellectual
- osmosis there but by and large this is
- what happens now in my view
- universities can choose either
- i don't think nep
- prohibits universities or pushes
- universities to become either
- school-based universities or
- department-based they can choose either
- the point is there should be many
- disciplines so you can't have just one
- school or two schools you have to men
- you have to have many of them or you
- can't have just one department you'll
- have to have many disciplines department
- you actually can have both you can have
- schools and you still can have
- departments and this is of course seen
- in many universities in india as well
- the trick is that you create
- new disciplines in these departments to
- become multi-disciplinary so
- so for instance
- you you um coming back to the point that
- i was making you cannot have affiliating
- colleges so this college
- becomes either a department or a school
- in an existing university right so there
- is no affiliation then the college is
- run as part of a university
- so um nap
- carves out three categories of
- institutions for the future one is
- research intensive university another is
- teaching intensive university and the
- third one is degree granting autonomous
- colleges right
- now
- um
- so um the first two categories research
- intensive and teaching intensive
- universities are essentially same type
- except that in the first one research
- and teaching is equally important
- in the second one teaching is slightly
- more important than research research
- takes place right and he's very clear
- about it but the emphasis on teaching is
- relatively higher
- the third category which is what
- probably could happen so let's say
- you're you're talking about an
- autonomous college right so think about
- an autonomous college and
- the college
- is thinking about its future so one
- option is that the college becomes part
- of a larger university either as a
- school or as a department but offering
- programs courses as part of the whole
- university another option is that it
- becomes a degree granting autonomous
- college
- it will only grant degrees in
- undergraduate education and it will
- largely
- largely be a teaching institution so
- there is the expectation of research
- will be rather limited from this college
- so autonomous degree granting college is
- another category that nep has carved out
- but by and large
- the hope is that all universities in
- india by 2030 definitely will become
- large multi-disciplinary universities
- which are either teaching intensive or
- research intensive right so these are uh
- three options that you suggested now the
- question is that if i am an autonomous
- college today right what factors should
- lead
- to making that decision that i want to
- be a teaching intensive or if i want to
- be a research intensive or let's say uh
- merge into a larger let's say uh
- conglomerate kind of a bigger that's a
- good university so what factors let's
- say i as a
- let's say proprietor of an autonomous
- college head of the trust which is
- behind that autonomous college what are
- the factors on which i should make these
- decisions it's very very you know a very
- interesting question and i don't know so
- let me put it this way
- i think the most important part is what
- is your will as a promoter or as a
- sponsoring body of the university
- um
- where do you see your autonomous college
- to go do you want to
- push the frontiers of knowledge in our
- society do you want to invest in in
- research so that new knowledge gets
- created which which then contributes to
- nation building projects
- or do you see yourself as an instrument
- for offering education to vast amount i
- mean nep proposes that we should have
- our enrollment ratio enrollment rate
- rise significantly two to fifty percent
- by 2035 which is which is a massive feat
- so i want to take part in this nation
- building
- effort and exercise
- uh not by
- doing research but by teaching and
- that's that's an equally laudable goal
- i think
- the univ the autonomous college the
- faculty members their board and their
- the vice chancellors and the directors
- and others should come together and
- think about where we want to go and i
- think this self-reflection is part of is
- one of the goals of nep nep wants
- universities and colleges to
- self-reflect and try to understand what
- is my place in the society what is my
- place in the future in this continuum of
- space time where do i locate myself and
- i think i want to educate my children
- so then i think degree granting
- autonomous college should be the choice
- i think i want to take part in this
- massive
- you know industry of creation of new
- knowledge pushing the frontiers of
- knowledge let me become part of a
- research intensive university you become
- part of research or even a translation
- based university because nap also
- specifies that that's a that's a good
- one that's a good one could be a
- transition based university as well
- could be a translation so i think um so
- here's here's the bottom line uh
- here's the bottom line
- i don't think nep is disabling actually
- it is enabling it is giving you
- possibilities to do what you want but it
- is forcing you to self-reflect what is
- it that i want to do and then there are
- ways in which it can be done in fact
- because it is just a policy
- the way it will be done has to be shown
- by these colleges themselves all these
- directors and vice chancellors have to
- come forward they have to create new
- create new structures and evolve into
- the direction of nep and that will
- become the standard in fact i'm talking
- to some people um evolve these
- structures themselves uh and and i think
- this is one of the most amazing
- perhaps
- you know i don't know whether it was
- intended or unintended but the
- self-reflection that universities and
- colleges have to go through is a great
- consequence of nep
- just to take that idea forward
- by your enthusiasm and optimism i think
- as we are constantly sometimes
- using national education policy and
- saying it as new education policy yeah
- yeah so with this misnomer do you think
- that we are actually entering into new
- age and new era of higher education
- where uh there are infinite
- possibilities it is upon the
- stakeholders of higher education
- you know who are the stakeholders of
- higher education it is really their
- ambition or the wisdom that would take
- it forward and not the
- regulatory bodies and the frameworks and
- whosoever decides the future of higher
- education do you think that uh the
- proprietors and the stakeholders of
- education are going to decide the future
- or the regulators so that's a good one i
- um i think it's already happening isn't
- it i mean look around us um we are no
- longer living in in a country where
- private university education is looked
- down upon as it used to be when i went
- to college in schools right and the same
- would go for you but now we have these
- uh some of the most vibrant higher
- education institutions are actually
- private institutions in india and these
- and and that is that has created a
- separate category of their own right so
- if you look at the private universities
- themselves there are very few which are
- doing extremely good work
- some of them
- you know
- some of them have are actually very very
- new
- and then there are a vast number of
- other colleges which are not doing which
- are largely teaching based but many of
- these new institutions have started
- pushing people to think about private
- university in a different light right
- and so i think the stakeholders of
- education which is the
- those who are
- um you know delivering education and
- those who are receiving education so to
- speak those who are in the business of
- research and teaching and they are
- actually defining the terms i think nap
- is
- contrary to probably popular perception
- i think it offers a lot more flexibility
- to higher education institutions to
- transform themselves if they want to um
- i don't think it is rigid at all and i
- think that flexibility is
- also symbolically representing a shift
- in how higher education needs to be
- perceived in india people who are in the
- business of higher education i don't
- want to use the word business for this
- and you know for obvious reasons but
- people who are engaging in higher
- education
- will carve out a space will carve out a
- trajectory a direction for higher
- education to move forward and i think
- what np tells them to do is listen
- you you choose your path make sure you
- are taking learning seriously right so
- on that note i mean it would be like
- quite poignant to point out that uh on
- the question of quality of education
- generally asked about so nap also talks
- about holistic education so i have a lot
- of it yeah so my question is threefold
- first
- what is holistic education the second uh
- how do we look at it and how the policy
- document is talking about it and third
- is the implementation
- process well thanks a lot for this so
- i'll answer the first you know i mean
- your question is
- um very very very very uh appropriate
- because
- it's a new terminology that has been
- interjected into this ecosystem suddenly
- at such vast scale i have never heard
- the word holistic education so much um
- as much i have in my entire life as much
- i heard it in the last one or two years
- and part of the reason is because people
- um are trying to still figure out what
- is what it means well in so let me put
- it this way i think holistic education
- in the way it is explained in nep is
- nothing but liberal arts education right
- um now this might be um this might not
- be um you know exactly what the framers
- of nap may have in their minds but
- effectively it boils down to this
- students must become
- responsible
- creative and ethical citizens of society
- and in doing though and responsible
- creative and ethical right in doing so
- their skills are not enough so their
- education has to go beyond it has to
- kind of transcend the boundaries of
- their disciplines and this is how
- actually education is supposed to be
- right um it um and nep refers to our old
- um you know venerable institutions like
- takashi nalanda vikram shila and others
- they were all offering holistic
- education largely talks about mingling
- of different types of disciplines
- so as to free up and open up the
- faculties of mind
- so you
- do not become constrained by thoughts
- your thoughts are basically opening up
- the vast possibilities that your mental
- faculties are capable of
- in practical terms
- you don't study just engineering you
- also study communication
- you don't study just history you also
- study painting you don't study just
- painting you study um you study um
- rhetoric and debate you don't just study
- rhetoric and debate you also study
- value-based education you also
- value-based education ethics is an
- important part of it and you don't just
- study ethics you study environment you
- study sustainability you also study
- how you are now no longer a citizen of
- your community but a global citizen how
- do you think in a global manner these
- uh the boundaries of your thinking
- are not constrained by the disciplines
- you study
- so um for for an educational institution
- um
- stem for an educational institution that
- is focusing on stem
- stem has to be transformed into steam so
- it's not just science technology
- engineering mathematics it is science
- technology engineering arts and
- mathematics so arts and humanities
- become part of stem courses
- stem courses become part of arts and
- humanities okay yeah i mean that's a
- nice point because when you said that
- you summarized it into one word holistic
- education means having liberal arts
- education now there's a converse or a
- flip side to it as well so there are
- universities which are non-stem
- universities offering courses only in
- liberal arts and humanities right do you
- think i let's say as a political science
- graduate uh should take up coding or uh
- should know what string theory is all
- about so this is uh this is exactly
- where nep
- marks a very distinct departure from the
- thinking of liberal arts institutions
- india so in india liberal arts often is
- uh construed as something which is
- related to social science and humanities
- but of course some institutions indeed
- um you know have have incorporated
- science stem based disciplines as well
- so this is exactly the hope of nep that
- it's not that just it's not just that
- stem students will study arts and
- humanities it is also that the arts and
- humanities or liberal arts students must
- study stem courses now the idea is not
- that you as a political science student
- must learn about string theory the idea
- is not string theory to be taught to you
- the idea is there is a different way of
- thinking about the world which you won't
- study which you won't learn which you
- won't explore unless you understand
- string theory so string theory is not
- the goal string theory is a medium for
- you to open up parts of your mind which
- would not be opened up by probably
- studying political science and so we are
- trying to create different types of so
- we are unlocking various faculties of
- mind through this and so i think um you
- know our students uh must study uh
- science um
- the the levels will vary the method and
- pedagogy will vary but i think that is
- the hope and i don't think it is very
- difficult to incorporate in fact now you
- know people who live in india um they
- will perhaps even uh be
- uh more receptive to such an idea
- because
- you know india is heterogeneous
- you know
- we all come across and run into so much
- of heterogeneity on a daily basis that
- we learn through our experiences why not
- bring that heterogeneity in the
- classrooms also right and so this is
- this is the idea of holistic education i
- think i think it's very important that
- you mention this because in chapter 11
- the entire chapter is on holistic
- education
- and one of the hopes that nap has and i
- should put it forth before before i
- forget
- is that um the way liberal arts programs
- are constructed right now
- are
- somehow influenced by how liberal arts
- education has gone on in the west
- um but nep hopes that we can create
- indian
- uh you know indian uh you can we can
- incorporate
- there is there is something which is
- able to connect the students with their
- own communities in india um they're able
- to create an indigenous so to speak
- liberal arts framework or a holistic
- framework and that is why they're
- calling it holistic
- and i think that's a
- that's a hope which is worth achieving
- right
- another question that stems from here as
- well what stem spun intended
- the idea here is that we have in the
- this hyper specialization world where
- the monopoly of a particular knowledge
- is marketable and we have higher
- education institutions which are very
- specific let's say for example we have
- law universities or forensic science
- universities or police universities
- rakshashakti universities that we have
- in india what about them do they need to
- uh
- add uh you know they will have to and i
- think uh it's a it's a fair point um i
- think they should because
- like i said um human minds don't think
- in um struck in in in you know the human
- minds is not disciplinarian in in the
- way things right so you swiftly move
- from i don't know supreme court cases to
- plato uh to a tree um to to this light
- and to this studio to my jacket to your
- green shirt we are swiftly able to
- navigate across these disciplines
- suddenly right and so therefore
- to constrain the minds into thinking
- about only one discipline um is not um
- the most advantageous thing for my
- interference and so i think all of these
- institutions that you mentioned which
- are very standalone discipline specific
- institutions uh must will have to
- evolve into a number of other
- departments or schools to become
- interdisciplinary but there's time for
- it it's like until 2030. but like i said
- the method is
- start a department or a school which is
- closely aligned to yours in fact one of
- the ways in which operationally this
- could be done is that you distinguish
- your faculty so i think these these
- institutions will also have to become
- multidisciplinary
- so point taken but then again the
- question is of implementation so today
- on ground
- how do these universities start doing it
- uh what are the you know most logical
- steps
- you know um
- i think a lot of it is about
- articulation
- so i meet you know university and
- college administrators regularly and
- they often tell me about the type of
- faculty members they have
- now
- many institutions in in an engineering
- college are actually doing
- communications
- uh all that's needed needed by these
- institutions to be done is that they
- carve out a separate department and
- put these faculty members in that
- department
- right or a school in which these faculty
- members are taken in so you
- you create sort of some of these
- disciplines within um which are also you
- have an eclectic group of faculty
- members just create disciplines around
- them
- and then make your university um you
- know uh effectively a multi-disciplinary
- university you'll also have to add more
- people or add more people from other
- disciplines and things like that so this
- could be done your your degree has to
- come from that school um sorry degree
- has to be has to come from the
- university but let's say in the
- convocation the dean of that school is
- giving that degree so that school is a
- separate entity from another school and
- so you have two schools rather than just
- one right
- or or two departments and then you have
- the you have the director and so on and
- so forth or the head of department now
- um your annual reports are mentioned
- your annual reports carry this
- articulation in fact the spirit of nep
- is that these these things must be
- articulated in the same way so students
- know that when they're going to study
- law they will also have options to study
- something related to science they will
- have options to relate it to something
- to do with the i don't know fine arts
- and things like that right so you can
- create those departments no so on the
- same point i mean it is quite exomatic
- to say now that and people have been
- saying this that knowledge converges as
- much as you grow higher up for example
- in your case you come from an
- engineering background and studying uh
- economics and then law and all of them
- together right uh it is the same goal
- that you are aspiring towards but do you
- think that uh when we are saying that
- all disciplines are in sort of these uh
- distinguishing features between one
- discipline to another right they are all
- sort of leading towards a common
- convergence of knowledge do you think
- that having more disciplines would
- really help uh the knowledge society
- that you want to build in so that's a
- philosophical question no no i think i
- think it's a good one let me try to
- answer not so philosophically than in
- that case the first response is
- um i think it's important partly because
- in india many times people choose
- disciplines and choose their study
- trajectory
- which they don't like right so
- and so therefore there is an option
- there is a possibility for them to move
- to another discipline because they think
- they are more their their attitude their
- sensitivities their aptitude is more
- aligned to a certain type of discipline
- so they can make those choices those
- moves but second and more importantly
- you know research has shown over time
- that
- students who have had a more
- interdisciplinary slash
- multidisciplinary backgrounds back in
- their college or schools
- were able
- to become
- more to to lead
- or to live a more fulfilling life
- decades later now these studies have of
- course i mean there are all kinds of
- econometric studies that need to be done
- econometric you know adjustments that
- you need to do in order to ensure that
- this is attributed to the
- multidisciplinary nature of it but this
- is this is uh now becoming very very
- evident now when we live in a society
- we cannot just be extremely smart coders
- we have to be good we have to carry good
- communication skills but only
- communication skills are also not going
- to take you so far so 21st century
- skills require us
- to be able to engage
- in variety of thinking
- uh patterns in a variety of of
- engagement patterns um and 21st century
- is a century of collaboration so um you
- know i so i think you know
- over time this so it might just look
- like a little bit too much why am i
- studying all kinds of different subjects
- and why am i even forced to study
- different types of subjects um but it
- but the but the whole point is in the
- long run it's going to pay off because
- these this is how societies have
- advanced if you look at nalanda takshala
- or vikram shall or all these
- universities that are mentioned in the
- nep as well there were no disciplinary
- boundaries of the type i mean you would
- study astronomy and grammar
- um you would study uh rhetoric and
- painting and so if you and that is that
- is what led us to evolve into a society
- that we were perhaps right
- and the case same case goes for bologna
- or oxford and cambridge in the in the uk
- and um and many other universities in
- the us as well so right so on that note
- i mean we can safely say that uh what
- are your opinions about on academic bank
- of credits because do you think that
- exactly what you spoke about right now
- that abc that is the academic bank of
- credits for credits can facilitate this
- process uh the entry and the exit points
- the choice based credit system so all of
- uh
- that
- kind of structures that are being
- introduced
- are they going to facilitate this entire
- multi-disciplinary and holistic
- education how much do you see this as a
- facilitator yeah so that's a good
- question as well i think and i think
- this is a very operational question and
- and we must be able to engage with it
- operationally in a functional you know
- you know functionally rather so
- so the idea that nab proposes is that
- students will have an option of exiting
- um from the university space
- um at the end of the first year second
- year third year or or you know at the
- end of the fourth year um if they leave
- at the end of first year they get a
- certificate in the end of second year
- they get a diploma then there are degree
- and if they leave at the end of fourth
- year which is what is envisaged that you
- do an undergraduate or four years you
- leave with an honors degree or a
- research degree
- now
- which means that in each of these years
- the learning outcomes must be specified
- so this is what the colleges and
- universities have to now do they have to
- they have to encourage faculty members
- to evolve sets of learning outcomes from
- each of the courses that they are
- delivering so yeah this is history and
- we're going to study all of this but
- what is the learning outcome and
- learning outcome can't be uh purely uh
- you know we will learn about what
- mughals did um or what was the
- administration during modern times there
- has to be it has to have a little bit
- more detail in terms of or a more
- generic feature in terms of what they
- learn but these learning outcomes
- collectively
- will determine that at the end of the
- first year the certificate that the
- student receives
- is worth something because this person
- has learned something and that is why a
- choice-based credit system kicks in so
- if you have a cbcs system so let me
- quickly tell for the benefit of the
- viewers
- it's nothing to be really scared of in
- some sense cbcs i mean there is a
- website on the ugc you can go to the go
- to the link and you will find the
- courses and the different kinds of
- topics in each of those courses courses
- that could be offered
- um college administrators often ask me
- how do they do it well actually these
- guys are already doing it without
- knowing that they're doing it so you
- have to
- categorize some courses as foundational
- which are compulsory for all of them to
- be taken some courses as electives some
- courses as discipline based electives
- some are outside the disciplines and so
- on and so forth the only
- the only difference is that in the
- amongst the electives there has to be an
- option so for instance the ugc template
- will tell you there has to be there have
- to be eight courses out of which
- students can take four well you can have
- five courses and students can take for
- as long as there is some option right so
- you don't have to really stress around
- your capacity of faculty members so much
- also and this is most interesting
- pradhan
- the cbcs framework that ugc has
- prescribed
- universities and colleges can follow up
- to seventy percent of it they still have
- room for thirty percent of uh you know
- subjects that they can choose from which
- are not prescribed by the ug so they can
- choose their own subjects as long as
- they fulfill the criteria of core
- uh you know core um electives discipline
- reactive and and and the electors
- outside the disciplines so in other
- words it is giving you you know
- extensive flexibility and i don't think
- you need more than that because if
- you're teaching history then i think 70
- percent of it should be right or at
- least 70 of the core should be on
- history in some ways right so so i think
- um let's look at cbcs in a in a very
- different light either the colleges can
- simply follow what ugc has prescribed
- right
- or
- they can tweak around it as long as the
- framework remains the same and most
- colleges whenever i look at their course
- syllabi
- they already have enough knowledge
- inventory
- to be categorized under the heads that
- cbcs already offers
- um you now create a structure in such a
- way that students have an option of
- collecting credits putting it in a by
- the way some of some of the viewers if
- if they don't know
- you know there's already a regulation on
- abc academic bank of credit so as a
- student i have
- you know some other credits earned these
- credits are
- from through my institution stored in my
- account in this website or in this
- portal somewhere right the institutions
- make this make these support their their
- uh
- they create their own logins
- and then tomorrow and at the end of the
- first year i leave and after four years
- or so i think the limit there is seven
- years so after four years i think now i
- have more time to do my education back
- in the days i had to leave because of
- some problem in family or because i want
- to do some job i can go back and now
- start from the second year rather than
- do the whole thing all over again and my
- credits that are stored earlier will be
- used will be adjusted for the remaining
- credits that i am going to be uh also if
- i want to change institutions right so
- i'm studying in college a uh but i don't
- um i i think i want to go to college b
- um after two years then college b will
- be able to take the credits from college
- a because they're stored in my abc in my
- academic bank uh and so they in college
- b i will start
- with the um we're doing a lot of abc
- which is interesting because they're
- talking about education anyway so
- so college b is going to take those
- credits from that bank
- and there is a website it's fairly easy
- accessible website of you know
- of the academic bank of credit the
- institutions and students can make their
- login ids
- and it's fairly easy to engage with i
- think right
- so we have touched upon various aspects
- and specific uh things in national
- education policy i just uh want to ask
- about some sort of a closing comment on
- academic governance per se yeah because
- i believe that a lot
- is in the hands of the stakeholders of
- the education and more on administrators
- and
- less on students perhaps so
- any message that you want to communicate
- to them that how they shouldn't go about
- them what should be their aspirations
- and how should they self-reflect
- with having this policy document in hand
- or they should wait for the law to come
- in place and then think about
- you know to do's and not to do's so any
- message for them you gone no i think one
- of the messages is very clear in the nep
- itself which is that uh each institution
- will now have to have an independent uh
- board of governors
- and i think this is an exercise that
- universities should already be engaging
- and if they're not they should start
- looking for people who are well-wishers
- of the university but also
- people who can really give
- meaningful uh practical
- and
- you know
- long-term impactful advice to the
- universities um and to these
- institutions i think there is there is a
- lot of um
- there is a lot of cross-learning uh from
- one institution to another anybody
- mentions about mentoring the
- universities will mentor those
- autonomous colleges if they want to come
- in the fall of universities but there is
- a lot of mentoring and crossover
- knowledge crossovers that is required in
- india so institutions universities don't
- talk to each other as much as i've seen
- in the west
- also institutions don't talk as much
- with the government or even with the
- industry and i think one way to create
- this academic sort of this creates the
- support of governors is to is for
- universities to talk to each other and
- learn from each other's experiences um
- and and and so this is something which
- is very clear already there which i
- think is a good idea
- but more importantly i think
- nep is
- indicating
- uh like i mentioned that universities
- and higher education institutions should
- take learning seriously but also
- self-reflect and really think about
- their place in the world and try to
- implement it my suggestion or sort of
- like closing comments here would be
- that uh in case you were already taking
- learning seriously um there is nothing
- there's no anxiety in nep at all it
- needs to be re-articulated everything
- that you were doing
- but in case you are not i think this is
- a good guiding document
- in some ways i think this is a win-win
- for both higher education administrate
- higher education institutions
- administrators
- students as well as societies
- i mean
- no society in the past
- has flourished or progressed
- without having
- without having excellent
- responsible higher education
- institutions
- uh
- you you can look at history and tell me
- um and i can tell you that this is the
- case uh i think this is the time when uh
- india really wants to usher into the
- space of knowledge creation
- into the 21st century with pride and
- their head head held high in the in the
- in the golden words of rabindra tagore
- and i think this is what nep is
- proposing us to do and i think
- if not this then what else in the
- century
- very well uh summed up ugand
- so on that note where the mind is
- without fear uh in the words of tagore
- we are at the end of our interview today
- uh thank you ugand guelph for coming
- with us and sharing your thoughts
- regarding the implementation challenges
- and suggestions related to national
- education policy related to higher
- education in india thank you very much
- thank you so much thanks for them thanks
- a lot
- End of transcript. Skip to the start.