Yugank Goyal — Implementing the National Education Policy (NEP)

Video transcript

1. Start of transcript. Skip to the end.
2. hello and welcome to evc learning
3. interviews today with us we have
4. professor dr yugang goyal yugang is a
5. faculty at flame university uganda has
6. been involved in setting up of various
7. higher education institutions he is
8. involved in public policy regulations
9. and various
10. law and development programs
11. today ugand is with us and he'll be
12. talking about implementation challenges
13. and suggestions on national education
14. policy 2020. so ugand welcome to the
15. interview well thank you so much fatim
16. it's a pleasure to be here
17. but you know to the audience i must say
18. the outset that these are really just
19. initial thoughts um in my engagement
20. with higher education institutions uh so
21. this is just a policy yet there is no
22. law so to speak so nothing that i will
23. mention must be construed as a legal
24. advice right these are some of the
25. suggestions and i think this is an
26. ongoing conversation
27. these ideas will evolve
28. these ideas will evolve even for me
29. but but i think it's important that we
30. at least set out some preliminary ideas
31. on the table but you know individual
32. institutions must do their own due
33. diligence before following the ideas
34. that we discuss in the in the in the
35. panel but thanks a lot for inviting me
36. so yugang there is a lot of anxiety
37. amongst higher education institutions
38. they really don't know what need to be
39. implemented and how that needs to be
40. implemented do you think this anxiety is
41. justified
42. well um yes and no um i think um
43. i think um
44. in one word or in one phrase if i have
45. to you know surmise what nap really asks
46. us to do is that we it wants us to take
47. learning seriously um so in educational
48. institutions that have never taken
49. learning seriously of course they will
50. be anxious because now they have to
51. but but on the other hand there are many
52. universities and colleges and other
53. higher education institutions that have
54. been tr that have been doing or making
55. significantly sincere efforts uh in in
56. achieving learning outcomes uh and also
57. research outcomes uh they don't
58. necessarily need to be anxious um i
59. think this anxiety is largely a result
60. of
61. partly the fact that institutions have
62. not been engaged in learning seriously
63. but also partly because there's a lot of
64. discussion
65. on nap's overall
66. you know goals
67. but there is very little discourse on
68. what can institutions do
69. to implement nep and so lack of that
70. discourse and a history of using higher
71. education institutions as a means to do
72. many things except learning
73. often probably leads to this so i think
74. learning is central here so
75. that's right
76. but let us take a step back from
77. teaching learning as a process but
78. imagine if i am a registrar or a
79. compliance officer or a vice chancellor
80. of a university what does it mean to me
81. how do i change things what all needs uh
82. to be implemented in practice right no i
83. mean i think this is great i mean and
84. this is really the crux of the problem
85. and let's try to unpack this
86. uh exactly this question through through
87. this conversation
88. you see as a as a university
89. administrator in most cases not all
90. the university administrators are in
91. general inclined to
92. follow certain laws or instructions that
93. are given to them by the government
94. right so this is what you have to do
95. this is what you can't do and so on and
96. so forth nap doesn't tell you this it
97. tells you what you should aspire for
98. what you should be achieving and so it's
99. an outcome driven document in some ways
100. and therefore many of these university
101. administrators are at a loss to figure
102. out what are the steps we take in order
103. to achieve this or what are the steps
104. that are expected in the nep so let's
105. try to unbundle many of these things
106. because in my personally in my view
107. universities
108. perhaps definitely the good ones they
109. don't need to be anxious about it
110. they're already doing many things that
111. are written in the nep
112. i think the one of the reasons for nep
113. to exist is to articulate in a very very
114. specific manner this is what we want our
115. universities to be like rather than
116. having this vague idea that earlier
117. existed so this is like you know
118. bringing a lot of
119. crystallizing some of these ideas
120. together um and i'm happy to take some
121. of these specific points in terms of
122. what has to be done
123. if i'm the registrar of a university
124. what should i be doing here to in order
125. to achieve it yeah so essentially are
126. you saying that the structure of
127. academic governance need to change and
128. uh
129. more learning should be i mean not not
130. only so academic governance is only one
131. part of nep and i think for the benefit
132. of our viewers we should mention that
133. this is a conversation only on
134. higher education
135. of nep and not school education because
136. that's an area that i work on but uh
137. governance is only one part of it
138. definitely an important part but um
139. but there are many other aspects
140. learning being one of them um then there
141. are areas related to
142. multi-disciplinarity areas related to
143. holistic education um areas related to
144. credit structures flexibilities um and
145. so on and so forth and let's uh sort of
146. pick them over time oh you know one by
147. one right so let's uh jump onto the
148. specifics and come to the text so one of
149. the things that you already mentioned is
150. uh multi-disciplinarity can you explain
151. uh to our viewers that
152. what it is and how it needs to be
153. implemented yeah so uh the first
154. question is an easy one even though
155. often misunderstood so let me tell you
156. um let me try to sort of give a picture
157. of what multidisciplinarity is so you
158. know um scholars and professionals often
159. use the word multidisciplinarity
160. interdisciplinarity and trans
161. disciplinarity
162. often interchangeably
163. but they should not be
164. in general
165. you know a
166. multidisciplinary education means that
167. somebody who's studying physics is also
168. studying painting so this is so these
169. are two separate subjects but the
170. student is exposed to learning of two
171. different disciplines in the same
172. university right um even though i'm
173. doing a degree in economics i'm also
174. studying history right so that is
175. multidisciplinarity but let's say if i
176. have to do a course on let's say
177. legal history or i have to do a course
178. on law and economics or area studies
179. right south asian studies
180. in here i am bringing concepts from both
181. law and economics
182. sometimes even from sociology history
183. this is interdisciplinarity right so
184. you're using concepts of two different
185. disciplines to create a new discipline
186. trans disciplinarity which is of course
187. not mentioned in nep and i don't think
188. we should go there but for
189. for the sake of it i should also mention
190. transdisciplinarity is another level
191. where
192. two disciplines
193. sort of get fused to each other you know
194. so think about for instance
195. bioinformatics right
196. bioengineering
197. or sustainability like right so you
198. cannot have
199. i mean both disciplines are equally
200. important to understand something else
201. which is the third one right um you need
202. biology and technology to understand
203. bioinformatics which is a third so this
204. is transdisciplinary which is kind of
205. the way of the future but but so in
206. multi so in
207. the context of nep multi-disciplinarity
208. is that your higher education
209. institution cannot be providing just one
210. particular type of pedagogical
211. intervention
212. it cannot be giving degrees it cannot be
213. given delivering classes in one
214. discipline alone you have to give
215. classes in several disciplines and of
216. course nap has given many examples which
217. brings me to the second point which is
218. how do you make it how do you make uh
219. you know i don't think it's very
220. difficult to think about it now that
221. i've explained it right
222. so you have an engineering college well
223. you should have courses on history
224. on
225. painting on sculpture
226. in addition on law and i think that's
227. extremely important in addition to
228. having courses in engineering um so
229. there has to be and it cannot all it
230. cannot really replace engineering
231. courses but students who are studying
232. engineering cannot not study other
233. disciplines too so over time the
234. expectation is until 2030 that colleges
235. or universities that are offering
236. programs in specific disciplines must
237. also offer programs in our subjects and
238. courses in many other disciplines that
239. makes them interdisciplinary sorry
240. multidisciplinary right so ims
241. um they are providing management
242. education iits are only providing
243. technical education but now many iid's
244. have begun offering social science
245. courses so that is a step towards
246. multidisciplinarity so think of a
247. registrar or a vice chancellor that you
248. were earlier proposing
249. who is a vice chancellor of allah
250. university
251. well now you will have to teach a little
252. bit of physics
253. you will have to teach a little bit of
254. mathematics you will also have to teach
255. a little bit of i don't know sculpting
256. perhaps and this allows many other
257. disciplines to flourish so it's not that
258. law is being replaced but there are many
259. other disciplines and these disciplines
260. allow the university's space to become
261. multidisciplinary how do you go about it
262. let's start and this is something in
263. which nip is also very explicit let us
264. start with those subjects which are
265. closest to your central subject so if
266. you if you have an engineering college
267. the way to move towards a
268. multi-disciplinary engineering college
269. is to start a course in
270. history of nuclear physics in india
271. history of engineering colleges
272. engineering in india
273. then maybe you move to science and
274. technology studies
275. you move to science and society
276. you move to
277. perhaps
278. perhaps economics
279. economics of
280. various
281. science programs economics of space
282. research programs in india for example
283. right then you move towards economics
284. itself then from there you can move to
285. economics of
286. town planning so these are connected to
287. engineering you move to architecture
288. right right um and then you move to
289. something very different let's say
290. painting or
291. philosophy philosophy of science is
292. another subject right sociology of
293. science right so let's move to other
294. disciplines other courses which are
295. closely related to your main one start
296. opening courses in that not not uh
297. degrees but courses so there are courses
298. on philosophy of science available in
299. engineering college and this becomes
300. slowly becomes a department then it
301. becomes a school and it becomes a
302. multi-disciplinary university by 2030.
303. right point taken ugand but let us see
304. the present higher educational
305. institutes in india so there are
306. affiliated colleges uh there are
307. universities or as you say some iit's
308. offering now
309. social science courses etc right so
310. within the present uh
311. hierarchy or the system of higher
312. education and if all of the colleges are
313. expected to go multidisciplinary how
314. will that come into place
315. um
316. so let me uh let me pour some of my
317. thoughts on this okay and i've thought
318. about it considerably
319. so
320. let's let's categorize institutions in
321. india right so
322. so you make two big categories like
323. public institutions and private higher
324. education institutions
325. within private
326. you have
327. uh like you mentioned right autonomous
328. colleges affiliated colleges um and then
329. there are of course private universities
330. um there are private institutions
331. nep
332. proposes that there will be nothing
333. called affiliating college in future
334. which means any college which is
335. affiliated to a university will will
336. cease to exist you cannot have
337. affiliations done
338. which in practice means that these
339. colleges
340. will have to merge with a large
341. university now this might suddenly occur
342. to many institutions as a big
343. sort of existential threat right but
344. that is not what's going on what's
345. really going on is so if you look at
346. let's say the american model
347. um so american universities think about
348. i don't know howard university right it
349. has harvard law school harvard business
350. school harvard schools of art and
351. science harvard school of art and
352. sciences and so on and so forth so you
353. have these several schools that are part
354. of a university the degree comes from
355. the university these schools are
356. smaller brackets or let's say you know
357. smaller categories under a larger
358. category of a university this is what
359. nep is proposing so you cannot have
360. small universities anymore or small
361. colleges you have to have large
362. multi-disciplinary university and the
363. number is around 3000. so you know if
364. your number is smaller than 3000 ho the
365. hope is that colleges sorry universities
366. will become larger
367. um and reap the benefits and gains from
368. collective wisdom of so many people and
369. different kinds of disciplines and also
370. economies of scale right there i just
371. want to interject and ask about that
372. what is exactly the road map of it so
373. you said about the american model where
374. you have schools and we have a model
375. that a particular faculty has
376. departments departments correct right
377. correct so what is the road forward for
378. present department into becoming schools
379. and how the administrative structure
380. would change and that's where i think
381. most of the anxiety among you're right
382. so i think you're right absolutely right
383. i think so here's how i see it so first
384. of all there is no
385. structured road map that comes from some
386. governmental department that has to be
387. followed it has to go we have to
388. co-evolve this and here's one way to do
389. it
390. so
391. you know university cons you know
392. structures of university can be
393. department specific which is like you
394. mentioned or they can be school specific
395. um you when you have departments then
396. the faculty members from these
397. departments often take the subjects of
398. the degree program so these departments
399. loan their faculty members so to speak
400. in a school you have your own faculty
401. members so an economist in a law school
402. is teaching economics in a law school i
403. mean of course there are you know
404. there's considerable intellectual
405. osmosis there but by and large this is
406. what happens now in my view
407. universities can choose either
408. i don't think nep
409. prohibits universities or pushes
410. universities to become either
411. school-based universities or
412. department-based they can choose either
413. the point is there should be many
414. disciplines so you can't have just one
415. school or two schools you have to men
416. you have to have many of them or you
417. can't have just one department you'll
418. have to have many disciplines department
419. you actually can have both you can have
420. schools and you still can have
421. departments and this is of course seen
422. in many universities in india as well
423. the trick is that you create
424. new disciplines in these departments to
425. become multi-disciplinary so
426. so for instance
427. you you um coming back to the point that
428. i was making you cannot have affiliating
429. colleges so this college
430. becomes either a department or a school
431. in an existing university right so there
432. is no affiliation then the college is
433. run as part of a university
434. so um nap
435. carves out three categories of
436. institutions for the future one is
437. research intensive university another is
438. teaching intensive university and the
439. third one is degree granting autonomous
440. colleges right
441. now
442. um
443. so um the first two categories research
444. intensive and teaching intensive
445. universities are essentially same type
446. except that in the first one research
447. and teaching is equally important
448. in the second one teaching is slightly
449. more important than research research
450. takes place right and he's very clear
451. about it but the emphasis on teaching is
452. relatively higher
453. the third category which is what
454. probably could happen so let's say
455. you're you're talking about an
456. autonomous college right so think about
457. an autonomous college and
458. the college
459. is thinking about its future so one
460. option is that the college becomes part
461. of a larger university either as a
462. school or as a department but offering
463. programs courses as part of the whole
464. university another option is that it
465. becomes a degree granting autonomous
466. college
467. it will only grant degrees in
468. undergraduate education and it will
469. largely
470. largely be a teaching institution so
471. there is the expectation of research
472. will be rather limited from this college
473. so autonomous degree granting college is
474. another category that nep has carved out
475. but by and large
476. the hope is that all universities in
477. india by 2030 definitely will become
478. large multi-disciplinary universities
479. which are either teaching intensive or
480. research intensive right so these are uh
481. three options that you suggested now the
482. question is that if i am an autonomous
483. college today right what factors should
484. lead
485. to making that decision that i want to
486. be a teaching intensive or if i want to
487. be a research intensive or let's say uh
488. merge into a larger let's say uh
489. conglomerate kind of a bigger that's a
490. good university so what factors let's
491. say i as a
492. let's say proprietor of an autonomous
493. college head of the trust which is
494. behind that autonomous college what are
495. the factors on which i should make these
496. decisions it's very very you know a very
497. interesting question and i don't know so
498. let me put it this way
499. i think the most important part is what
500. is your will as a promoter or as a
501. sponsoring body of the university
502. um
503. where do you see your autonomous college
504. to go do you want to
505. push the frontiers of knowledge in our
506. society do you want to invest in in
507. research so that new knowledge gets
508. created which which then contributes to
509. nation building projects
510. or do you see yourself as an instrument
511. for offering education to vast amount i
512. mean nep proposes that we should have
513. our enrollment ratio enrollment rate
514. rise significantly two to fifty percent
515. by 2035 which is which is a massive feat
516. so i want to take part in this nation
517. building
518. effort and exercise
519. uh not by
520. doing research but by teaching and
521. that's that's an equally laudable goal
522. i think
523. the univ the autonomous college the
524. faculty members their board and their
525. the vice chancellors and the directors
526. and others should come together and
527. think about where we want to go and i
528. think this self-reflection is part of is
529. one of the goals of nep nep wants
530. universities and colleges to
531. self-reflect and try to understand what
532. is my place in the society what is my
533. place in the future in this continuum of
534. space time where do i locate myself and
535. i think i want to educate my children
536. so then i think degree granting
537. autonomous college should be the choice
538. i think i want to take part in this
539. massive
540. you know industry of creation of new
541. knowledge pushing the frontiers of
542. knowledge let me become part of a
543. research intensive university you become
544. part of research or even a translation
545. based university because nap also
546. specifies that that's a that's a good
547. one that's a good one could be a
548. transition based university as well
549. could be a translation so i think um so
550. here's here's the bottom line uh
551. here's the bottom line
552. i don't think nep is disabling actually
553. it is enabling it is giving you
554. possibilities to do what you want but it
555. is forcing you to self-reflect what is
556. it that i want to do and then there are
557. ways in which it can be done in fact
558. because it is just a policy
559. the way it will be done has to be shown
560. by these colleges themselves all these
561. directors and vice chancellors have to
562. come forward they have to create new
563. create new structures and evolve into
564. the direction of nep and that will
565. become the standard in fact i'm talking
566. to some people um evolve these
567. structures themselves uh and and i think
568. this is one of the most amazing
569. perhaps
570. you know i don't know whether it was
571. intended or unintended but the
572. self-reflection that universities and
573. colleges have to go through is a great
574. consequence of nep
575. just to take that idea forward
576. by your enthusiasm and optimism i think
577. as we are constantly sometimes
578. using national education policy and
579. saying it as new education policy yeah
580. yeah so with this misnomer do you think
581. that we are actually entering into new
582. age and new era of higher education
583. where uh there are infinite
584. possibilities it is upon the
585. stakeholders of higher education
586. you know who are the stakeholders of
587. higher education it is really their
588. ambition or the wisdom that would take
589. it forward and not the
590. regulatory bodies and the frameworks and
591. whosoever decides the future of higher
592. education do you think that uh the
593. proprietors and the stakeholders of
594. education are going to decide the future
595. or the regulators so that's a good one i
596. um i think it's already happening isn't
597. it i mean look around us um we are no
598. longer living in in a country where
599. private university education is looked
600. down upon as it used to be when i went
601. to college in schools right and the same
602. would go for you but now we have these
603. uh some of the most vibrant higher
604. education institutions are actually
605. private institutions in india and these
606. and and that is that has created a
607. separate category of their own right so
608. if you look at the private universities
609. themselves there are very few which are
610. doing extremely good work
611. some of them
612. you know
613. some of them have are actually very very
614. new
615. and then there are a vast number of
616. other colleges which are not doing which
617. are largely teaching based but many of
618. these new institutions have started
619. pushing people to think about private
620. university in a different light right
621. and so i think the stakeholders of
622. education which is the
623. those who are
624. um you know delivering education and
625. those who are receiving education so to
626. speak those who are in the business of
627. research and teaching and they are
628. actually defining the terms i think nap
629. is
630. contrary to probably popular perception
631. i think it offers a lot more flexibility
632. to higher education institutions to
633. transform themselves if they want to um
634. i don't think it is rigid at all and i
635. think that flexibility is
636. also symbolically representing a shift
637. in how higher education needs to be
638. perceived in india people who are in the
639. business of higher education i don't
640. want to use the word business for this
641. and you know for obvious reasons but
642. people who are engaging in higher
643. education
644. will carve out a space will carve out a
645. trajectory a direction for higher
646. education to move forward and i think
647. what np tells them to do is listen
648. you you choose your path make sure you
649. are taking learning seriously right so
650. on that note i mean it would be like
651. quite poignant to point out that uh on
652. the question of quality of education
653. generally asked about so nap also talks
654. about holistic education so i have a lot
655. of it yeah so my question is threefold
656. first
657. what is holistic education the second uh
658. how do we look at it and how the policy
659. document is talking about it and third
660. is the implementation
661. process well thanks a lot for this so
662. i'll answer the first you know i mean
663. your question is
664. um very very very very uh appropriate
665. because
666. it's a new terminology that has been
667. interjected into this ecosystem suddenly
668. at such vast scale i have never heard
669. the word holistic education so much um
670. as much i have in my entire life as much
671. i heard it in the last one or two years
672. and part of the reason is because people
673. um are trying to still figure out what
674. is what it means well in so let me put
675. it this way i think holistic education
676. in the way it is explained in nep is
677. nothing but liberal arts education right
678. um now this might be um this might not
679. be um you know exactly what the framers
680. of nap may have in their minds but
681. effectively it boils down to this
682. students must become
683. responsible
684. creative and ethical citizens of society
685. and in doing though and responsible
686. creative and ethical right in doing so
687. their skills are not enough so their
688. education has to go beyond it has to
689. kind of transcend the boundaries of
690. their disciplines and this is how
691. actually education is supposed to be
692. right um it um and nep refers to our old
693. um you know venerable institutions like
694. takashi nalanda vikram shila and others
695. they were all offering holistic
696. education largely talks about mingling
697. of different types of disciplines
698. so as to free up and open up the
699. faculties of mind
700. so you
701. do not become constrained by thoughts
702. your thoughts are basically opening up
703. the vast possibilities that your mental
704. faculties are capable of
705. in practical terms
706. you don't study just engineering you
707. also study communication
708. you don't study just history you also
709. study painting you don't study just
710. painting you study um you study um
711. rhetoric and debate you don't just study
712. rhetoric and debate you also study
713. value-based education you also
714. value-based education ethics is an
715. important part of it and you don't just
716. study ethics you study environment you
717. study sustainability you also study
718. how you are now no longer a citizen of
719. your community but a global citizen how
720. do you think in a global manner these
721. uh the boundaries of your thinking
722. are not constrained by the disciplines
723. you study
724. so um for for an educational institution
725. um
726. stem for an educational institution that
727. is focusing on stem
728. stem has to be transformed into steam so
729. it's not just science technology
730. engineering mathematics it is science
731. technology engineering arts and
732. mathematics so arts and humanities
733. become part of stem courses
734. stem courses become part of arts and
735. humanities okay yeah i mean that's a
736. nice point because when you said that
737. you summarized it into one word holistic
738. education means having liberal arts
739. education now there's a converse or a
740. flip side to it as well so there are
741. universities which are non-stem
742. universities offering courses only in
743. liberal arts and humanities right do you
744. think i let's say as a political science
745. graduate uh should take up coding or uh
746. should know what string theory is all
747. about so this is uh this is exactly
748. where nep
749. marks a very distinct departure from the
750. thinking of liberal arts institutions
751. india so in india liberal arts often is
752. uh construed as something which is
753. related to social science and humanities
754. but of course some institutions indeed
755. um you know have have incorporated
756. science stem based disciplines as well
757. so this is exactly the hope of nep that
758. it's not that just it's not just that
759. stem students will study arts and
760. humanities it is also that the arts and
761. humanities or liberal arts students must
762. study stem courses now the idea is not
763. that you as a political science student
764. must learn about string theory the idea
765. is not string theory to be taught to you
766. the idea is there is a different way of
767. thinking about the world which you won't
768. study which you won't learn which you
769. won't explore unless you understand
770. string theory so string theory is not
771. the goal string theory is a medium for
772. you to open up parts of your mind which
773. would not be opened up by probably
774. studying political science and so we are
775. trying to create different types of so
776. we are unlocking various faculties of
777. mind through this and so i think um you
778. know our students uh must study uh
779. science um
780. the the levels will vary the method and
781. pedagogy will vary but i think that is
782. the hope and i don't think it is very
783. difficult to incorporate in fact now you
784. know people who live in india um they
785. will perhaps even uh be
786. uh more receptive to such an idea
787. because
788. you know india is heterogeneous
789. you know
790. we all come across and run into so much
791. of heterogeneity on a daily basis that
792. we learn through our experiences why not
793. bring that heterogeneity in the
794. classrooms also right and so this is
795. this is the idea of holistic education i
796. think i think it's very important that
797. you mention this because in chapter 11
798. the entire chapter is on holistic
799. education
800. and one of the hopes that nap has and i
801. should put it forth before before i
802. forget
803. is that um the way liberal arts programs
804. are constructed right now
805. are
806. somehow influenced by how liberal arts
807. education has gone on in the west
808. um but nep hopes that we can create
809. indian
810. uh you know indian uh you can we can
811. incorporate
812. there is there is something which is
813. able to connect the students with their
814. own communities in india um they're able
815. to create an indigenous so to speak
816. liberal arts framework or a holistic
817. framework and that is why they're
818. calling it holistic
819. and i think that's a
820. that's a hope which is worth achieving
821. right
822. another question that stems from here as
823. well what stem spun intended
824. the idea here is that we have in the
825. this hyper specialization world where
826. the monopoly of a particular knowledge
827. is marketable and we have higher
828. education institutions which are very
829. specific let's say for example we have
830. law universities or forensic science
831. universities or police universities
832. rakshashakti universities that we have
833. in india what about them do they need to
834. uh
835. add uh you know they will have to and i
836. think uh it's a it's a fair point um i
837. think they should because
838. like i said um human minds don't think
839. in um struck in in in you know the human
840. minds is not disciplinarian in in the
841. way things right so you swiftly move
842. from i don't know supreme court cases to
843. plato uh to a tree um to to this light
844. and to this studio to my jacket to your
845. green shirt we are swiftly able to
846. navigate across these disciplines
847. suddenly right and so therefore
848. to constrain the minds into thinking
849. about only one discipline um is not um
850. the most advantageous thing for my
851. interference and so i think all of these
852. institutions that you mentioned which
853. are very standalone discipline specific
854. institutions uh must will have to
855. evolve into a number of other
856. departments or schools to become
857. interdisciplinary but there's time for
858. it it's like until 2030. but like i said
859. the method is
860. start a department or a school which is
861. closely aligned to yours in fact one of
862. the ways in which operationally this
863. could be done is that you distinguish
864. your faculty so i think these these
865. institutions will also have to become
866. multidisciplinary
867. so point taken but then again the
868. question is of implementation so today
869. on ground
870. how do these universities start doing it
871. uh what are the you know most logical
872. steps
873. you know um
874. i think a lot of it is about
875. articulation
876. so i meet you know university and
877. college administrators regularly and
878. they often tell me about the type of
879. faculty members they have
880. now
881. many institutions in in an engineering
882. college are actually doing
883. communications
884. uh all that's needed needed by these
885. institutions to be done is that they
886. carve out a separate department and
887. put these faculty members in that
888. department
889. right or a school in which these faculty
890. members are taken in so you
891. you create sort of some of these
892. disciplines within um which are also you
893. have an eclectic group of faculty
894. members just create disciplines around
895. them
896. and then make your university um you
897. know uh effectively a multi-disciplinary
898. university you'll also have to add more
899. people or add more people from other
900. disciplines and things like that so this
901. could be done your your degree has to
902. come from that school um sorry degree
903. has to be has to come from the
904. university but let's say in the
905. convocation the dean of that school is
906. giving that degree so that school is a
907. separate entity from another school and
908. so you have two schools rather than just
909. one right
910. or or two departments and then you have
911. the you have the director and so on and
912. so forth or the head of department now
913. um your annual reports are mentioned
914. your annual reports carry this
915. articulation in fact the spirit of nep
916. is that these these things must be
917. articulated in the same way so students
918. know that when they're going to study
919. law they will also have options to study
920. something related to science they will
921. have options to relate it to something
922. to do with the i don't know fine arts
923. and things like that right so you can
924. create those departments no so on the
925. same point i mean it is quite exomatic
926. to say now that and people have been
927. saying this that knowledge converges as
928. much as you grow higher up for example
929. in your case you come from an
930. engineering background and studying uh
931. economics and then law and all of them
932. together right uh it is the same goal
933. that you are aspiring towards but do you
934. think that uh when we are saying that
935. all disciplines are in sort of these uh
936. distinguishing features between one
937. discipline to another right they are all
938. sort of leading towards a common
939. convergence of knowledge do you think
940. that having more disciplines would
941. really help uh the knowledge society
942. that you want to build in so that's a
943. philosophical question no no i think i
944. think it's a good one let me try to
945. answer not so philosophically than in
946. that case the first response is
947. um i think it's important partly because
948. in india many times people choose
949. disciplines and choose their study
950. trajectory
951. which they don't like right so
952. and so therefore there is an option
953. there is a possibility for them to move
954. to another discipline because they think
955. they are more their their attitude their
956. sensitivities their aptitude is more
957. aligned to a certain type of discipline
958. so they can make those choices those
959. moves but second and more importantly
960. you know research has shown over time
961. that
962. students who have had a more
963. interdisciplinary slash
964. multidisciplinary backgrounds back in
965. their college or schools
966. were able
967. to become
968. more to to lead
969. or to live a more fulfilling life
970. decades later now these studies have of
971. course i mean there are all kinds of
972. econometric studies that need to be done
973. econometric you know adjustments that
974. you need to do in order to ensure that
975. this is attributed to the
976. multidisciplinary nature of it but this
977. is this is uh now becoming very very
978. evident now when we live in a society
979. we cannot just be extremely smart coders
980. we have to be good we have to carry good
981. communication skills but only
982. communication skills are also not going
983. to take you so far so 21st century
984. skills require us
985. to be able to engage
986. in variety of thinking
987. uh patterns in a variety of of
988. engagement patterns um and 21st century
989. is a century of collaboration so um you
990. know i so i think you know
991. over time this so it might just look
992. like a little bit too much why am i
993. studying all kinds of different subjects
994. and why am i even forced to study
995. different types of subjects um but it
996. but the but the whole point is in the
997. long run it's going to pay off because
998. these this is how societies have
999. advanced if you look at nalanda takshala
1000. or vikram shall or all these
1001. universities that are mentioned in the
1002. nep as well there were no disciplinary
1003. boundaries of the type i mean you would
1004. study astronomy and grammar
1005. um you would study uh rhetoric and
1006. painting and so if you and that is that
1007. is what led us to evolve into a society
1008. that we were perhaps right
1009. and the case same case goes for bologna
1010. or oxford and cambridge in the in the uk
1011. and um and many other universities in
1012. the us as well so right so on that note
1013. i mean we can safely say that uh what
1014. are your opinions about on academic bank
1015. of credits because do you think that
1016. exactly what you spoke about right now
1017. that abc that is the academic bank of
1018. credits for credits can facilitate this
1019. process uh the entry and the exit points
1020. the choice based credit system so all of
1021. uh
1022. that
1023. kind of structures that are being
1024. introduced
1025. are they going to facilitate this entire
1026. multi-disciplinary and holistic
1027. education how much do you see this as a
1028. facilitator yeah so that's a good
1029. question as well i think and i think
1030. this is a very operational question and
1031. and we must be able to engage with it
1032. operationally in a functional you know
1033. you know functionally rather so
1034. so the idea that nab proposes is that
1035. students will have an option of exiting
1036. um from the university space
1037. um at the end of the first year second
1038. year third year or or you know at the
1039. end of the fourth year um if they leave
1040. at the end of first year they get a
1041. certificate in the end of second year
1042. they get a diploma then there are degree
1043. and if they leave at the end of fourth
1044. year which is what is envisaged that you
1045. do an undergraduate or four years you
1046. leave with an honors degree or a
1047. research degree
1048. now
1049. which means that in each of these years
1050. the learning outcomes must be specified
1051. so this is what the colleges and
1052. universities have to now do they have to
1053. they have to encourage faculty members
1054. to evolve sets of learning outcomes from
1055. each of the courses that they are
1056. delivering so yeah this is history and
1057. we're going to study all of this but
1058. what is the learning outcome and
1059. learning outcome can't be uh purely uh
1060. you know we will learn about what
1061. mughals did um or what was the
1062. administration during modern times there
1063. has to be it has to have a little bit
1064. more detail in terms of or a more
1065. generic feature in terms of what they
1066. learn but these learning outcomes
1067. collectively
1068. will determine that at the end of the
1069. first year the certificate that the
1070. student receives
1071. is worth something because this person
1072. has learned something and that is why a
1073. choice-based credit system kicks in so
1074. if you have a cbcs system so let me
1075. quickly tell for the benefit of the
1076. viewers
1077. it's nothing to be really scared of in
1078. some sense cbcs i mean there is a
1079. website on the ugc you can go to the go
1080. to the link and you will find the
1081. courses and the different kinds of
1082. topics in each of those courses courses
1083. that could be offered
1084. um college administrators often ask me
1085. how do they do it well actually these
1086. guys are already doing it without
1087. knowing that they're doing it so you
1088. have to
1089. categorize some courses as foundational
1090. which are compulsory for all of them to
1091. be taken some courses as electives some
1092. courses as discipline based electives
1093. some are outside the disciplines and so
1094. on and so forth the only
1095. the only difference is that in the
1096. amongst the electives there has to be an
1097. option so for instance the ugc template
1098. will tell you there has to be there have
1099. to be eight courses out of which
1100. students can take four well you can have
1101. five courses and students can take for
1102. as long as there is some option right so
1103. you don't have to really stress around
1104. your capacity of faculty members so much
1105. also and this is most interesting
1106. pradhan
1107. the cbcs framework that ugc has
1108. prescribed
1109. universities and colleges can follow up
1110. to seventy percent of it they still have
1111. room for thirty percent of uh you know
1112. subjects that they can choose from which
1113. are not prescribed by the ug so they can
1114. choose their own subjects as long as
1115. they fulfill the criteria of core
1116. uh you know core um electives discipline
1117. reactive and and and the electors
1118. outside the disciplines so in other
1119. words it is giving you you know
1120. extensive flexibility and i don't think
1121. you need more than that because if
1122. you're teaching history then i think 70
1123. percent of it should be right or at
1124. least 70 of the core should be on
1125. history in some ways right so so i think
1126. um let's look at cbcs in a in a very
1127. different light either the colleges can
1128. simply follow what ugc has prescribed
1129. right
1130. or
1131. they can tweak around it as long as the
1132. framework remains the same and most
1133. colleges whenever i look at their course
1134. syllabi
1135. they already have enough knowledge
1136. inventory
1137. to be categorized under the heads that
1138. cbcs already offers
1139. um you now create a structure in such a
1140. way that students have an option of
1141. collecting credits putting it in a by
1142. the way some of some of the viewers if
1143. if they don't know
1144. you know there's already a regulation on
1145. abc academic bank of credit so as a
1146. student i have
1147. you know some other credits earned these
1148. credits are
1149. from through my institution stored in my
1150. account in this website or in this
1151. portal somewhere right the institutions
1152. make this make these support their their
1153. uh
1154. they create their own logins
1155. and then tomorrow and at the end of the
1156. first year i leave and after four years
1157. or so i think the limit there is seven
1158. years so after four years i think now i
1159. have more time to do my education back
1160. in the days i had to leave because of
1161. some problem in family or because i want
1162. to do some job i can go back and now
1163. start from the second year rather than
1164. do the whole thing all over again and my
1165. credits that are stored earlier will be
1166. used will be adjusted for the remaining
1167. credits that i am going to be uh also if
1168. i want to change institutions right so
1169. i'm studying in college a uh but i don't
1170. um i i think i want to go to college b
1171. um after two years then college b will
1172. be able to take the credits from college
1173. a because they're stored in my abc in my
1174. academic bank uh and so they in college
1175. b i will start
1176. with the um we're doing a lot of abc
1177. which is interesting because they're
1178. talking about education anyway so
1179. so college b is going to take those
1180. credits from that bank
1181. and there is a website it's fairly easy
1182. accessible website of you know
1183. of the academic bank of credit the
1184. institutions and students can make their
1185. login ids
1186. and it's fairly easy to engage with i
1187. think right
1188. so we have touched upon various aspects
1189. and specific uh things in national
1190. education policy i just uh want to ask
1191. about some sort of a closing comment on
1192. academic governance per se yeah because
1193. i believe that a lot
1194. is in the hands of the stakeholders of
1195. the education and more on administrators
1196. and
1197. less on students perhaps so
1198. any message that you want to communicate
1199. to them that how they shouldn't go about
1200. them what should be their aspirations
1201. and how should they self-reflect
1202. with having this policy document in hand
1203. or they should wait for the law to come
1204. in place and then think about
1205. you know to do's and not to do's so any
1206. message for them you gone no i think one
1207. of the messages is very clear in the nep
1208. itself which is that uh each institution
1209. will now have to have an independent uh
1210. board of governors
1211. and i think this is an exercise that
1212. universities should already be engaging
1213. and if they're not they should start
1214. looking for people who are well-wishers
1215. of the university but also
1216. people who can really give
1217. meaningful uh practical
1218. and
1219. you know
1220. long-term impactful advice to the
1221. universities um and to these
1222. institutions i think there is there is a
1223. lot of um
1224. there is a lot of cross-learning uh from
1225. one institution to another anybody
1226. mentions about mentoring the
1227. universities will mentor those
1228. autonomous colleges if they want to come
1229. in the fall of universities but there is
1230. a lot of mentoring and crossover
1231. knowledge crossovers that is required in
1232. india so institutions universities don't
1233. talk to each other as much as i've seen
1234. in the west
1235. also institutions don't talk as much
1236. with the government or even with the
1237. industry and i think one way to create
1238. this academic sort of this creates the
1239. support of governors is to is for
1240. universities to talk to each other and
1241. learn from each other's experiences um
1242. and and and so this is something which
1243. is very clear already there which i
1244. think is a good idea
1245. but more importantly i think
1246. nep is
1247. indicating
1248. uh like i mentioned that universities
1249. and higher education institutions should
1250. take learning seriously but also
1251. self-reflect and really think about
1252. their place in the world and try to
1253. implement it my suggestion or sort of
1254. like closing comments here would be
1255. that uh in case you were already taking
1256. learning seriously um there is nothing
1257. there's no anxiety in nep at all it
1258. needs to be re-articulated everything
1259. that you were doing
1260. but in case you are not i think this is
1261. a good guiding document
1262. in some ways i think this is a win-win
1263. for both higher education administrate
1264. higher education institutions
1265. administrators
1266. students as well as societies
1267. i mean
1268. no society in the past
1269. has flourished or progressed
1270. without having
1271. without having excellent
1272. responsible higher education
1273. institutions
1274. uh
1275. you you can look at history and tell me
1276. um and i can tell you that this is the
1277. case uh i think this is the time when uh
1278. india really wants to usher into the
1279. space of knowledge creation
1280. into the 21st century with pride and
1281. their head head held high in the in the
1282. in the golden words of rabindra tagore
1283. and i think this is what nep is
1284. proposing us to do and i think
1285. if not this then what else in the
1286. century
1287. very well uh summed up ugand
1288. so on that note where the mind is
1289. without fear uh in the words of tagore
1290. we are at the end of our interview today
1291. uh thank you ugand guelph for coming
1292. with us and sharing your thoughts
1293. regarding the implementation challenges
1294. and suggestions related to national
1295. education policy related to higher
1296. education in india thank you very much
1297. thank you so much thanks for them thanks
1298. a lot
1299. End of transcript. Skip to the start.